I just found this article:

SECOND OPINION: Children and New Zealand, Pt. 1
www.expatexposed.com/

This sounds bad! I though NZ would be an improvement over Canada, but now we're not so sure!  

I'm a Pom who emigrated to NZ back in 73, lived there almost 30 years -- very happily -- and have now lived in Australia for 5 years. I find the variance in the experience of migrants these days, to both NZ and OZ, fascinating. The expat exposed site is interesting and, even though it's all disgruntled migrants running down the country I still call home, it's something that is probably needed and very useful to anybody thinking of emigrating. Get the good views and the bad before you make a decision.

Given my own good experiences in both NZ and Australia, not surprisingly I don't agree with much of what's said on expat exposed. Having said that, those people did have those unfortunate experiences and it follows that others would probably have similar experiences.

The bottom line here is that nobody can tell anybody else whether another country is going to be 'right' for them to live in, or if their experiences will be uniformly positive or negative. On balance I suspect that most migrants have a mixed experience in their first 5 years. (I didn't. NZ felt like 'coming home' to me but perhaps things have changed more than I realised).

As for the experiences and stats quoted for kids in NZ, I'd take them with a grain of salt. No doubt they're accurate but a comparison even of the other countries quoted shows that NZ is not so far different from other developed nations in most of the measures quoted. If you take one measure, obesity, NZ does better than Canada, much better than the US and marginally better than the UK. And, although it's not quoted, NZ does better than Australia too. The reality is that overweight kids are a modern phenomenon in any developed nation.

However, those measures -- of other things as well as obesity -- tell only part of the story. You have to also understand the country's demographics to get a true picture. Sticking with obesity, the figures are skewed by a fact almost unique to NZ, which is that a predominantly Caucasian country has a relatively large grouping of Maori and Pacific Islanders in its population mix. While it's not PC to actually say it, the reality is that the diet of those groups, and their genetic tendency to grow 'big' kids, means that a disproportionally large number of the overweight will be found in those ethnic groups, particularly Pacific Islanders, whose diet still tends to the very fatty meat and very large meals they've traditionally eaten.

I don't know but I suspect that if you measured only the 'Caucasian' kids the percentages would go down. And that tends to be the case with lots of measures, including health. The sad fact is that the Maori and Islanders, despite huge efforts to change things over the last 30 years, still lag behind the general population.

I would also say that the passage quoting those stats is headed 'Physical fitness.' That's misleading. Being overweight -- particularly using the rather narrow definition we now have of obesity -- is not necessarily a pointer to poor physical fitness. Again, the Islanders and Maori tend to disprove that generalisation. Plenty of Islander kids look huge, and fat, but when they play sport it's obvious that they're also very fit. From my observations most kids in NZ are pretty fit.

Air and water? The person who wrote that piece lived, unhappily, in Christchurch and, not surprisingly, uses Christchurch's air pollution figures to buttress her case. Fair enough, but what she does not mention is that because of its geographical location Christchurch is notorious for its smog. It's a lovely city and I've visited it many, many times and have lots of friends there who love the place. But I wouldn't live there for a big gold clock. It bakes in summer, freezes in winter and frequently suffers the Nor'Wester. Sometimes, the weather is as perfect as weather can ever get but not often enough to tempt me. Air quality has improved in recent years with bans on open fires but you can't stick a city in a location like Christchurch and expect not to get bad air. Have a look at a topographical map.

It's not the same in other cities, a fact borne out by the posters own stats. Auckland for instance has much, much cleaner air than either Brisbane or Sydney. Probably Christchurch does too -- it's all relative.

Water that's not 'microbiologically safe.' Stuff and nonsense. Water in the main cities is as clean, if not cleaner, than anywhere in the world. What those figures mean are that small communities, often using tank water rather than reticulated water, don't meet the same standards as a major city water treatment plant. So what? I drank water from tanks in NZ for 25 years and it never affected me one iota. Given the choice I'll take tank water over city water any day. A few microorganisms in your whisky never hurt anybody.

Open space & lifestyle. Well, sorry, but without wanting to be rude to the people on expat exposed, talking about NZ's 'wide open spaces' being somehow a con because people choose to live in a city to work is plain silly. That applies to any nation in the world, developed or otherwise. You don't get the mountains and beaches and ski resorts and jet boats NZ is known for in the middle of a major city.

Having said that, NZ comes closer to that ideal than any other country I've lived in except maybe OZ. Live in Auckland and, within 15-60 minutes you can be on one of dozens of beaches, five minutes if you live in the beachside suburbs themselves. You can be on one of two harbours in the same time. Live out west in Auckland and you live in the Waitakere Ranges, a beautiful range of mountains.

But even if you live in Porirua or Mangere you can be in open space with very few people around in just a short drive. People have a choice; they either live and work in a city to enjoy the 'urban' facilities and use the open air facilities on the doorstep at weekends (and yes, every city in NZ is close to the coast, mountains, skiing or some form of outdoor activity) or you opt to live in the country and have it all around you every day. The price you pay for that is fewer job choices and less 'urban' facilities -- read cafes, theatres, shopping malls etc -- but that's a universal truth in all countries. I don't know too many places where you could live in a bustling town or small city -- Queenstown for example -- and be within 2 or 3 minutes of the most superb scenery in the world and no more than 10 minutes from world class skiing. But hey, you pay for it -- Queenstown and places like Taupo and Russell are a rich man's playground. But then, so are Bermuda or Aspen.

In other posts on expat exposed people discuss racism in NZ. That does sadden me because I have to confess it does exist. Most kiwis are not racist but that does not excuse those who are. I have no explanation or excuse. Except perhaps one quite specific thing. The lady who had such a bad experience in Christchurch with racism is of Asian descent. There are two things that make being Asian and living in Christchurch more difficult than living in say Auckland or Wellington.

One is that Christchurch is a bastion of the white anglo-saxon culture that built NZ. That comes from a lot of historical baggage I won't get into but it's a fact that Christchurch is less tolerant of those without white skin than other places in NZ. It's not a cosmopolitan city.

The second reason is much more pragmatic. Christchurch is a mecca for Asian tourism, the jumping off point for the South Island holiday destinations. People in Christchurch make a lot of money from those tourists and one would think that they'd therefore welcome them with open arms.

Unfortunately, they don't. They don't because they don't like being sellers of souvenirs or tour guides and bus drivers. They don't because they don't like opening up the High Country sheep stations, and a lot of other things they hold dear, to an influx of chattering tourists. They did those things because making money out of sheep became impossible years ago -- largely because of the UK -- and they had no other choice except to lose land that might have been in their family for 6 generations. Cantabrians are very proud people, and especially proud of their farming heritage and their unique landscape. They really don't like sharing it very much.

Like any tourism driven economy they also get a little tired of the 'geese' and they've had some unfortunate experiences with Asian tourists over the years. Of course, the shopkeepers and so on don't show that to the tourists with the open wallets (or not often) but those who don't work in the industry probably do vent their spleen.

I'm not condoning it for one moment but anyone who has ever tried to get a coffee in a Christchurch cafe when 4 or 5 busloads of Japanese, Koreans or Chinese have just arrived can at least understand the irritation. It happens in every tourist town around the world; deep down, people resent the source of the money even while they're grabbing it with both hands.

Whether that's genuine redneck Ku Klux Klan style racism or something less sinister I don't know. I'd like to think it's less sinister, or at least that it doesn't run deep.

All in all, I've been a little saddened to see the comments on expat exposed. It hasn't changed my view of the country I love (yes, I know I live in OZ; Queensland is just sunnier and I feel the cold these days) but I think it fair enough to say to prospective migrants that making the move in 2007 is obviously a lot different than when I did it. It makes sense to be very careful with your research. But in the end, you won't know if it's for you unless you suck it and see.  

You know something though, we're really glad we found that Website. Your perspective is really different from ours because you immigrated quite a while ago. It's really different now and expatexposed is definitely for today.

Everything he talked about in that article hit home for us. We went to one of those immigration expos and,the stuff they were telling us was EXACTLY what he was talking about. We fell in love with the idea of these adorable homes with land that people would come and graze sheep on, and the presenter said you could just do a short commute for city jobs like a lot of Kiwis (guess that's not true). They had pictures of all these kids that looked like Prince William and adorable cities under bright blue skies... It just looked and sounded amazing. And they did say "wide open spaces", ALOT. You had to be there to appreciate what a hard sell it was, and all the booths for NZ were like that.

Now that I think about it, it makes me mad. I mean, you talk about the smog and city life and racism like it's something everyone would know, but we don't! All the immigration material and these expos and even some people on forums say the opposite, we literally had NO idea.

Anyway, I can see why those people thought they had to say something. I'm glad they did because there's a chance our daughter's inherited asthma! expatexposed sort of popped our bubble and made us really look at hard data, because this is a big, big decision for us.

Also, I don't think there's ANY excuse for racism. They must get all kinds of White tourists on the South Island too. It sounds like Asian tourists crowding up a cafe is just an excuse for bigotry that's already there.  

never been to NZ- but am planning on going- that said i really, really feel the urge to comment...

1. i have no idea what they told you but: what do you expect at an expo? of course they're going to sell their country as best as they can. who wouldn't. i don't think it's right to outright lie to people but i do think it's naive to swallow the whole pitch without questioning things...can't blame someone else because you believed/wanted to believe that NZ is perfect.

2. smog & racism IS an issue almost everywhere. i agree that there is NO excuse for racism but i DO understand what jump was getting at. i guess people will always try to find someone to take their frustrations out on.

3. your daughter having asthma is definitely a reason not to go to ANY big city isn't it? i'm not an expert but isn't the air outside of the city always better than in??

not trying to pick a fight or anything...you sound like you're angry at new zealand for not living up to your epectations- maybe you should be upset that you didn't get all the facts first and now are confronted with reality- and that reality isn't what you imagined?

sorry if this sounds harsh- that really wasn't my intention. i'm an expat living in the middle east at the moment and i hear people every day telling me how disappointed they are now that they are here. "nobody every told me this or that". before i came here, i searched the internet for months- and i'm very happy to say that things are pretty much the way i pictured them. of course you never really know if a place is for you until you've been there.

maybe that article really was a blessing. now you can make an informed choice.

rant over!  

[quote="Ninnyhammer"]You know something though, we're really glad we found that Website. Your perspective is really different from ours because you immigrated quite a while ago. It's really different now and expatexposed is definitely for today.

Fair enough, and I'm happy that the whole gamut of information is available.

We fell in love with the idea of these adorable homes with land that people would come and graze sheep on, and the presenter said you could just do a short commute for city jobs like a lot of Kiwis (guess that's not true).

Sorry, but it's very true. I lived on a country property 30 minutes out of Auckland for almost 20 years and did exactly that. We grew avocados, olives (semi-commercially) and had horses, sheep, pigs, chooks, a couple of beef cattle, hundreds of fruit and nut trees and a huge vege garden. We were largely self-sufficient.

Initially I worked in Auckland, commuting every day for 4 years, then, for 8 years I published a monthly magazine, working from the property, before selling the publication to News Ltd. I stayed on with News as editor of that magazine for another 7 years, again commuting to Auckland a few days a week.

The property also had a beautiful big old home on it and a wonderful garden, frequently featured in magazines. Pretty as a picture and with 90 kilometres of forest and beach on the back boundary. But guess what? It only got that way after we poured money, love and attention into it over almost 20 years.

That sounds exactly like the kind of life the expo people described. It took everything we had first to buy it and then to make it work but, if I could do it...

It sounds to me like you read what you were told as somehow everyone being able to live on a rural property close to the city but big enough to graze sheep, and somebody else would come along and, for the privilege of you providing grazing land, would manage the land for you. Sorry, doesn't work like that anywhere in the world.

I don't think you can blame NZ immigration people for you apparently assuming that a farm property close to a major centre would a) be easily affordable for the average house buyer and, b) not involve the owner in major work.

And they did say "wide open spaces", ALOT. You had to be there to appreciate what a hard sell it was, and all the booths for NZ were like that.

And why wouldn't they? NZ DOES have plenty of wide open spaces, everywhere. There are just 4 million people in a country the size of the UK and three-quarters of them live in 3 major cities. The rest of the country is semi- or fully-rural or national park. AFAIK there is no other country where you can live in any town or city and still be so close to the great outdoors.

The open spaces exist. If you don't live in them or make full use of them then that's a choice for the individual to make.

Now that I think about it, it makes me mad. I mean, you talk about the smog and city life and racism like it's something everyone would know, but we don't! All the immigration material and these expos and even some people on forums say the opposite, we literally had NO idea.

The racism I won't defend. But to assume it doesn't exist is plain silly. ANY country with as cosmopolitan a population as NZ is going to have its share of racists. Smog? Well, apart from Christchurch, and that only rarely these days, I've never seen 'smog' in NZ. Liverpool, where I was born, now that had smog and fog and sleet and snow. And it's probably been cleaned up now.

expatexposed sort of popped our bubble and made us really look at hard data, because this is a big, big decision for us.

Indeed, as it is for everyone who makes it. Which is why it's incumbent upon you to assume nothing and do your own research.  

luckyNL, what are you talking about?

We're not in NZ, we're in Canada and just started researching NZ. And our daughter MAY have asthma because of her heredity, we won't know until she shows symptoms.

It's not very nice of you to say things like "you sound like you're angry at new zealand for not living up to your epectations- maybe you should be upset that you didn't get all the facts first and now are confronted with reality".

You should actually read people's posts before you jumpt to conclusions...

And I don't know where you're from originally, but if middle-class people in my city (Saskatoon) made the kind of racist comments that they're talking about over in expat exposed, there'd be just hell to pay. They'd lose friends, probably jobs, and everyone would treat them like they were crazy hicks. We're not exactly the Center of the Galaxy, but we're civilized enough to know you don't act this way! Fine, there's racism everywhere. But most of us know it's something bad and shameful! My grandma used to believe and say awful things about the Natives, my dad still kind of thinks it but learned to not to say it, I grew up knowing that kind of thinking was dumb, and our kids know and say that it's wrong to pre-judge people. It's called progress.

jump100, you probably think we're dumb for believing what we were told, but doesn't that just prove that sites like expatexposed.com are needed? I went up to the presenter (and he was from one of the NZ government ministries) and chatted with him, and HE was the one that said a lot of lifestyle plots owners made deal with sheep farmers, and that they were "quite affordable, especially if you're coming in with a stronger currency like the dollar"! We didn't assume it, deals like that don't happen in the U.S. or Canada. I think Canadians trust government employees more, and if NZ culture winks on this kind of fibbing, boy do we need to know about it.

We're new to this immigration thing, and probably won't do it unless there's job security.

But the things I've read on forums like this one makes me crazy!

Whenever something doesn't work out, people just jump on the poor person and lectures them about how they shouldn't have belived the rosey pictures and was naive and stupid and yada-yada. I mean, hello, even with all the visits and research in the world, it's still a leap of faith to pack up everything and move to another country! If you're a completely skeptical kind of person that doesn't beleive ANYTHING they're told until they look it up themselves, you WOULD NEVER immigrate!

I used to be a police officer and alot of my colleagues talked this way to people when they got burgled. 'Oh, you left the bathroom window open? That wasn't a good idea.' 'No deadbolt? You should have known better.' 'Lady didn't trim the tree and they just climbed right in. What an idiot, eh?' That kind of stuff. You know what, if there's a level of petty crime in a neighborhood, SOMEONE is going to be unlucky and get broken in. Like my ex-partner used to say, "Let's blame the victim, cuz we sure can't find the guys who did it!"

I think you guys are lucky that it worked out for you. You shouldn't look down on people who didn't get so lucky. There but for the grace of God go you, you know?  

I think you might have misunderstood my comments. Let's start again and see if we can help you.

Firstly, I have no problem with Expat Exposed and I think any reasonable Kiwi will welcome the fact that prospective migrants have the chance to hear of bad experiences as well as good. Nobody wants people to make a life-changing move and be disappointed or unhappy.

Having said that, I also think that people need to take all of these forum opinions -- the good and the bad experiences -- with a grain of salt. The reality is that everyone's experience will be unique and whether the move works out for them is largely dependent upon their own attitude, how flexible and adaptable they are, and what they're prepared to put in to a new life.

I don't know the people over on Expat Exposed. I'm sure that they all had the unfortunate experiences they describe. However, I do know literally thousands of migrants to NZ (or at least I've met and talked to thousands) from countries as diverse as the UK, USA, Vietnam, China, OZ etc. I can assure you that, assuming they were telling me the truth, the negative experiences are very much in a minority.

Most of the people I met were happy and glad they made the move. That's not to say they did not have any moans. They did. NZ salaries are not as good as in other countries. The pace of life is slower. Houses are often built of wood and neither air-conditioned or centrally heated. Traffic in some places, particularly Auckland, can be chaotic and Kiwis are terrible drivers. That kind of thing.

Nobody has ever mentioned an experience with racism to me however. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Kiwis are no different to the Canadians you describe. Whatever they may privately think it is very rare for somebody to actually express a racist view. NZ is really a very PC country and, primarily because of the Maori population, respect for other cultures is literally hammered into kids at school. They've been doing that for decades now so some of it must have rubbed off.

But there are always going to be some ignorant people in any society. And they're not necessarily white. Maori can be racist too. And the most open racists I've ever encountered were actually Japanese -- especially against Koreans (in Japan).

NZ's racial villification laws are amongst the strongest in the world. I really don't think you'll find that aspect of the country much different from your own.

I don't think you are dumb. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was making general comments, not specific. And, yes, all the research in the world doesn't entirely prepare you for the move. I did no research. My wife and I hopped on a plane and went. All we knew of NZ was what a few people we met in Europe told us. Didn't need permits or anything back then.

Obviously, things are very different these days but most of what you were told at that expo sounds like it was pretty much the truth. Don't think the migration people were 'fibbing' but perhaps they made some things sound easier than they are in real life. That's probably natural.

For example, it IS common practice for people to rent grazing. It's called agistment and it might be for horses, sheep or cattle. A farmer who needs some extra grazing will pay somebody who has the land sitting idle a weekly fee per animal. Some people make a living out of it. I'm sure it's done in Canada too.

However, to understand how it works in practice you probably need to be a land owner/farmer. If you have a few acres of scrubby, poor grazing that might support 10 or 20 sheep you are not going to find anybody willing to pay you for it. With sheep, farmers are usually looking at enough winter grass for anything from 50 to 1000 animals. That's about 10 to 200 acres of GOOD grazing.

I don't know what the rates are these days but you might be looking at $7-$10 an animal/per week. But only if the grass is good, nutritious fodder. Which means that you have to work to get it that way, and keep it in shape. You also have to make sure you have good fencing, water, races and all the other stuff needed to adequately keep animals in good health. So it's not as if you're having somebody else take over the land and do all the work.

Lifestyle blocks in NZ vary greatly but they're not usually the best land. Shrug. If they were the original owners would be running dairy cows on it and making a lot more money than they can by selling off a few acres to a dreamer from the city.

Most of them are also a bit too small for genuine agistment, usually between 2.5 and 10 acres, but often they're big enough to do a deal with another lifestyler neighbour. You don't get top dollar but maybe they'll keep your fences in good repair and fertilise the land in return for grazing. That kind of deal.

So the guy was right; it does happen and it's very common. But it's perhaps not as simple as it might seem to a city-based immigration guy who probably read about it the paper.

He was also correct that rural lifestyle properties are still affordable, although what's 'affordable' depends on how much money you have I guess. Compared with the cost of housing in prime city or beachside suburbs lifestyle places are still very good value but I don't know if I would call them cheap these days.

In 1987 when we bought 10 acres and a house 30 minutes out of Auckland it cost us well under $200,000, which seemed not exactly cheap to us but at least reasonable. People thought we were nuts to go so 'far out' of the city. When we sold it 2002 it was in 7 figures, which I thought was ludicrous. But then everything else had gone up by similar amounts.

The reality is that the further you go from the major cities -- and the sought-after areas -- the cheaper it gets. You want to live in a rural setting an easy 30 minute drive from the centre of Auckland or right outside Queenstown or Nelson or Russell, it's going to cost a helluva lot more than a comparable place an hour out of Dargaville or New Plymouth.

Wouldn't that be the same anywhere?

And that of course affects the availability of jobs and the salaries you can earn. Clearly there is more work, and higher pay, in a major city like Auckland than there is in say a place like Nelson.

The point I keep trying to make is that NZ is no different to anywhere else in that respect. You live in New York or London and work is easier to get than it might be in Bangor, Maine. And property prices and salaries reflect that.

In reading what people say and the questions they ask on these forums, I cannot help but feel that there is a perception that NZ is somehow 'different' from everywhere else. I rather think that people are searching for somewhere where society is more 1957 than 2007, but with all of the modern amenities of life.

Well, NZ is different to most places I've been in. But it is still a part of the 21st century, with all of the problems and difficulties that go with it. Having lived in Australia for the last 5 years, personally I think that the issues raised here (with the exception of salaries and taxes) are far worse in OZ than NZ, be it racism, pollution, crime or any other measure.

You have to decide what it is that you personally want. The grass isn't always greener...