The following transcript was generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Carlie: It’s the Expat Focus Podcast. I’m your host, Carlie. For a long time, moving abroad was something that Americans stereotypically did in retirement, or maybe just for a couple of adventurous years. Today though, international mobility for US citizens is turning into something else: a strategy for building a more resilient life.
Financial advisor Scott Schwartz has worked as an international airline pilot, he’s sailed around the world, and these days he lives part-time on his boat in Malta. Scott’s authored a new book, Adapting Elsewhere: A Practical Guide for Americans Moving Abroad. Today we’re getting into what it actually takes to make a move overseas work — the parts that nobody puts in the brochure.
Scott, thanks for joining me on the show.
Scott: My pleasure.
Carlie: You have spent over three decades advising Americans living abroad. Before it became your career, I’m curious about what pulled you personally into this line of work.
Scott: It’s a long story. I started out as an undergraduate student studying geography, and I was very intrigued by seeing the world. After undergrad, doing geography and meteorology — which is another story we’ll get into here — I became an airline pilot.
I was a professional pilot for several decades. I was an international captain for a major US airline, and I flew around the world and got to see firsthand what it was like in different places. I lived in Berlin, I was based there for a while, and spent a lot of time in Europe, the Middle East, South and Central America, and Hawaii.
So it gave me a very good overview. I also spent time sailing. I’ve sailed around the world, basically. I’ve spent a lot of time in the Med — eight years sailing in the Mediterranean. And I live part-time in Malta now, where I have a boat.
Carlie: That’s fabulous, Scott, because my last guest was an author who bought a property in Malta, and we just had that conversation. And my family’s from Malta, so I’m loving this through line at the moment between interviews.
Scott: Oh, my.
Carlie: What an exciting life. I just have to say, what a dream to fly around the world as a pilot — for so many people — and then sail around the world too.
Scott: Yeah, it’s a different perspective. I never really experienced that tourist thing. I was always a professional crew member — even as a sailor, I was somewhat of a professional crew member. So I didn’t see things as a tourist, and I don’t like the whole tourist scene. I’m more of an Anthony Bourdain type, less of a Rick Steves type.
Carlie: How did flying planes lead to financial advising?
Scott: That’s a good question. Being an airline pilot’s a little dodgy, because at any time you can lose your medical and then you can’t work as a pilot, or airlines go out of business periodically.
So I figured I’d have a parallel career. What kind of career would I be interested in? What suited me? What could glean the same kind of income as being an airline pilot? I thought being an investment advisor was a good career. I ended up actually not flying for several years before I retired as a pilot — I managed the pension fund for the pilot group instead of flying the plane.
So I have a lot of experience with mergers and acquisitions, with managing pension funds, and that sort of thing. It gave me a very interesting perspective: not only seeing the world from the cockpit and from travelling, but also seeing the world from the boardroom, which helps me with my advising practice and helping people with their investments.
Carlie: Definitely. And I think it brings that additional level of trust — working for fellow pilots, for example, someone who actually understands the lifestyle and the finances. To have an insider looking after your assets.
Scott: Yeah, it is. I also spent 16 years with a British firm, and we were helping Brits living in the United States, as well as clients who were Americans living abroad. So I had a good perspective from spending time in England with that firm, dealing with expats coming from both directions. All of that led to where I am today, advising primarily Americans moving abroad.
Carlie: So what motivated you to write your book, Adapting Elsewhere?
Scott: It’s actually part two. I wrote another book called Investing in a New Climate, which was a tag on my interest in geography, meteorology and climate change. The first book was about how to deal with investing as an opportunity: how does climate change, and how can we take advantage of it?
We can invest in irrigation software. We can invest in areas that will thrive based on some of the climate change. So it was not a book about doom and gloom — it was a book about how we can thrive and adapt. It was all about adapting to a changing world, and it wasn’t just about climate, it was also about political and economic changes.
So this book is just the second part. It gets away from the deep financial side and gets more into the lifestyle side: okay, now that we want to adapt to a new climate and we want to live somewhere else, where should we go? How should we go? What’s the process? That’s something I thought was lacking in the world.
There were a lot of books on where’s the best tapas, or where can I get the best pizza. But as far as how do we actually move, how do we do this sensibly, and what are the pros and cons, the ups and downs? It was my natural second book. I enjoyed writing it more than the first one, because the first book was more technical and this book was more fun, more thought-provoking and more emotional — we talk about people getting lonely, people maybe wanting to go home, things that aren’t usually discussed.
There’s always this Pollyanna approach of, “Oh, it’s going to be great,” and, “My life’s going to be perfect when I move somewhere.” It’s not always the case. That’s what motivated me to write the book, and I was happy to get it done.
Carlie: I was having this conversation with a friend just the other day, because the question of will you move back to Australia comes up frequently for me. And the longer I’m away from home, the less likely it feels, for many reasons. But I think there’s an element you never truly reconcile when you live abroad — that pull to be home, and the family you leave behind.
Scott: I agree, and I think the key, particularly for Americans moving abroad, is having community elsewhere. Either you have community — you know somebody there, your family’s there — or you immediately join organisations and become part of the world. But if someone maintains that tourist attitude, I don’t think it works.
Carlie: My cousins actually sent me some video overnight, Scott, from one of the Maltese festas in my dad’s village. So I’m curious — how’s your community gone in Malta?
Scott: It’s been great. I’ve dialled into the expat community, which is fun, because I’m dealing with people from different parts of the world — mostly from the US, but Brits and South Africans too. I joined the yacht club, so I’ve met people with similar interests, and there’s a Rotary club there doing good work for women in Malta.
It was very quick for me to dig into the community, because I knew it was a thing, so I focused on it. I actually got started before I even moved there. I also did research on the book there, and I spent a lot of time in Malta — I have another book coming out about the Knights of St John.
To me, Malta is very interesting, and that’s part of the process: finding somewhere. Finding somewhere is the hardest thing — finding somewhere that you enjoy and can get into, and get into the culture and get to know it. I think that’s such a big part of people thinking about immigration.
Carlie: I need to hear that you’re joining a band club and learning how to make fireworks. I think that’s the next step.
Scott: I know.
Carlie: Now, your book argues that living abroad has gone from a retirement dream to a practical strategy. What, in your opinion, is driving that shift right now? I can imagine there’s politics, economics, remote work, possibly all in the mix there.
Scott: It’s definitely all in the mix. There was a time when it was a romantic idea to move abroad, and now it’s becoming more practical. The world’s getting smaller. It’s much less expensive to live elsewhere than in the United States — I’ve seen that firsthand. I couldn’t believe how reasonable it was, particularly in Malta, for food.
And even though Malta’s an expensive place, the rent and the property are still much, much less expensive than where I’m from in California.
Carlie: For anyone that doesn’t know much about Malta, it’s going through quite a boom of construction at the moment.
Scott: That’s an understatement.
Carlie: Absolutely. Over-development, one could say, potentially. It’s definitely in its boom era, which is bringing positives and negatives to the island, I would say.
Scott: I would agree. And to your point, the politics is huge. A lot of the clients at our firm have been approaching us for advice on how to move elsewhere, and I think a lot of people in the United States are feeling othered.
They’re feeling like they’re not part of the United States anymore because maybe they’re progressive, maybe they’re part of the LGBT community, and they’re getting uncomfortable and looking for an exit strategy. That’s probably been the bigger part of the last year or so: people wanting to leave because they’re scared to stay.
Carlie: There’s also a climate element, as you talked about earlier. I have friends in Texas who say every summer it’s just getting hotter and it’s harder to live there.
Scott: That’s true. And I think the other thing to think about, as one of the components of where someone might want to go, is the climate. The lower latitudes, closer to the tropics, it’s going to be hotter. The higher latitudes, either north or south, it’s going to be cooler. So that’s something to consider.
But I still go back to what I said earlier. If I had to choose between the climate or knowing people, I would choose the social connections over the climate. But climate is definitely a big player.
Carlie: Yes, 100%. My husband and I talk about, if we don’t live here in Strasbourg in eastern France, where would we move? And one of the big factors for me is, well, where can I find an established community?
Scott: Yeah. I imagine, doing this podcast, you have a lot of empirical experience with that.
Carlie: Absolutely. I’ve spoken to a lot of people about this very subject. I want to talk about the financial traps.
Scott: Some of the traps are simply not good planning. That’s the underlying component.
Carlie: Can we speak broadly about the fact that there are things to consider, especially as an American moving abroad? I’ve spoken to your colleague on this show a few times — Tom Zachystal — about the unique rules Americans need to abide by abroad. FATCA is one of those acronyms that comes to mind, and how that complicates things where you might think you can just up and move anywhere without an issue, right?
Scott: Right. FATCA is a reporting requirement that other countries are required to perform for the United States, and a lot of the banks don’t want to do business with Americans abroad because they have to do this reporting. So that’s a problem.
Carlie: I think that’s the number one question I see in our Facebook groups and on online forums. “I’m an American, I’ve just arrived in X country. How can I open a bank account? Who will let me have a bank account?”
Scott: Right. And that’s why we recommend Wise or Revolut, or another provider like N26.
Carlie: Nickel, I think I’ve heard of as well.
Scott: Sure, sure. These days you don’t really need to have a bank account in country. I don’t. I use Wise when I’m in Malta, and I have HSBC as well — there’s an American version of it, so when you’re there you can use your ATM without fees and so forth.
It’s very difficult to open an account without residency and an address. And there’s FATCA, and there’s PFICs — if you invest in certain non-US investments, they could be taxed differently, in a less beneficial way.
So there are tax issues. The United States is one of the only countries that has worldwide taxation, so when you leave the United States you still get taxed by the United States. Because of treaties you generally don’t get double taxed, but you do get additional taxes from the new country sometimes.
It’s complicated, and it’s important. The biggest thing is: don’t leave until you’ve set up your financial situation in the United States. If you don’t change your financial institution before you leave, 183 days after you’re gone, whatever bank you have will dump you — and now you don’t have a bank, or a financial institution.
It’s much better to take care of it before you leave, and that’s what people don’t know, because you don’t know what you don’t know. People need to get a team of experts before they seriously leave, to be able to sift through these things and not make the mistakes that you so astutely pointed out.
That’s the biggest problem with leaving the United States to go abroad — not getting your ducks in a row before you go. Set up the account, then you can move and use your account, use your address in the other country. But you have to set the account up first, here.
Carlie: Does it matter if you’re a high net wealth individual or more of an average Joe or Jane, in terms of your financial position?
Scott: Well, certainly if you’re a high net worth person you have more assets to protect, but it also gives you more options, particularly with residency. In Malta, for example, they got rid of the golden visa — sort of — but you can still get around it now. It’s interesting, the new process.
Instead of just putting money on the table and saying, “I want a passport,” now you have to present a project to Malta and say, “Okay, I’m going to improve the museum. I’m going to spend money to do that, and this is the timeframe and the goal.” You basically get the same job done, but with a slightly different process.
Carlie: Citizenship by investment, yeah.
Scott: Right. It’s more optical — it looks better for the country the way they’re doing it now, but it has basically the same effect.
Carlie: Yeah. Malta citizens want to see that foreigners are giving their country something in return for the passport, in terms of investment, as you say, in a museum. I last read about it quite a while ago, but it used to be that you’d have to buy property in Malta and live in it for a period of time.
Scott: That’s one of the paths — either buying property or having a long-term lease. But citizenship by investment is the gold standard, because it gives you access to the EU. That’s the one that takes a larger investment, and now it takes the complication of a pre-approved project.
Carlie: I think the European Commission has been challenging it — Malta, Cyprus, all the ones offering those golden visas, golden passports.
Taxes, healthcare, banking, investing, residency — there are so many moving parts. If someone is just starting to think seriously about a move, Scott, where do they actually start?
Scott: That’s a very good question. That’s the question. But I have to go back to: the first place to start is, where do you want to go?
Carlie: The million-dollar question.
Scott: Don’t let your question drive where you want to go. Do you have community? Do you know someone? Is it attractive to you? Don’t go somewhere that meets all the financial needs if that’s not going to make you happy. So that’s number one.
And number two is simple: create a team. If one of your listeners is seriously thinking about moving, once they’ve identified a candidate place — and that candidate place may not be where they end up. They may decide, “I really want to go to Italy,” and then once they’re in Italy they go, “You know, I think I’d rather be in Greece.”
But the key is the team, and the team involves a financial advisor like International Asset Management, like us. It involves tax professionals, often in both places — a US tax professional and an Italian tax professional — estate attorneys, and immigration consultants. If you have that team, then it’s hard to go wrong, and I think that should be one of the first things.
It’s boring stuff and it costs money, but it’s worth it because you don’t want to make a mistake. So putting together a team is the answer to the question, after you’ve identified the place that you really want to go to — not based on the details, but based on your true desire.
Carlie: And I would assume the strategy differs depending on whether you’re moving abroad for retirement, or whether you’re still in the working period of your life.
Scott: Oh, absolutely. That’s huge. And there are digital nomads, which is often temporary, kind of a Band-Aid. You can stay in a place for a while, and often you can’t work for a company in country, but you can work in your own business or for a company you work for in the US. That’s a good way to get your feet wet.
The other strategy would be to get a job with a company that is based there, wherever “there” is. And then the other one is retirement, which is simpler: if you meet the minimum — say, €42,000 a year — and you can handle that, maybe Social Security could almost be enough, then that’s probably the easiest path to moving abroad.
Carlie: Scott, for Americans, the healthcare consideration is not nothing, especially in a lot of cases, in terms of what can be provided for them abroad versus in the USA. What have you navigated for clients when it comes to healthcare and international health insurance?
Scott: Well, that’s it — it is international health insurance. Often when someone moves to another country, they don’t have access to the national healthcare system right away, if ever. So having private healthcare is a good strategy, and it’s not as expensive as one might think. It can be affordable.
You can also go back to the United States and take advantage of Medicare, or any health plan one might have in the United States. Most people are going to go back anyway and see their family. So there are different ways to navigate it. And even if someone is doing the Schengen shuffle, which is what I recommend for everybody —
Carlie: This is the 180-day rule, right?
Scott: Yes. I think it’s a really good idea for people who don’t know where they want to go: take advantage of the Schengen shuffle, which is a colloquialism for being able to spend 90 days in every 183.
Carlie: That’s the first time I’ve heard this, and I love it.
Scott: It’s fantastic, because if you’re going to want to go home and see your kids or your parents, it’s a good way to do it. You can rent an Airbnb, or you can even rent an apartment if it’s not expensive. But even then you should get travel insurance for the medical side of it.
The Schengen shuffle is a great way to maybe spend a year or two poking around and figuring out where you might want to stay, before you get to the point where you put together your team, and before you make a decision on where you want to go.
And even after you make a decision on where you go, you might change your mind, and after that you might decide to go home. That’s okay. You’re not a failure if you end up going home. But be realistic.
Carlie: I’ve read some clickbaity articles recently along the lines of “this American moved to France, and 18 months later she said it was the worst decision ever and moved home.” Excuse me if you’re watching on YouTube — you might notice my camera freaking out just a bit there. It’s not necessarily a failure, Scott, is it, if you move abroad, give it a go, and then decide, actually, it’s not where I want to be?
Scott: Yeah. There’s a continuum of time. I have an acquaintance who moved to Mexico in retirement, to live with his childhood friend, and he spent almost 30 years in Mexico. Finally age got the better of him and he had to move back to the United States and live near his son.
Most of us will have an exit strategy and we’ll have to come back at some point — maybe even to take advantage of a long-term care insurance policy, where you need care for maybe the last six months or year of your life and you might have to be back in the United States.
It’s not a failure, it’s not a crime, it’s not even a problem. It’s something that should be in the planning: maybe I have to go back, and if I have to go back, where would I live? So yes, to your point. I think, though, that the clickbait — the 18-month France person — is more the exception than the rule.
I think most people do manage to get through the loneliness, get through the angst of moving abroad, and then they get comfortable, they make friends and become part of the community. But there are certainly people that leave earlier, and that’s not a failure either.
Carlie: I’ve spoken to guests on the show before about how you really need to approach living abroad with an open mind, and being open to meeting people and embracing local culture and practices and the way things work.
Because if you do rail against it — and I have been guilty of doing this in certain elements of French life — you’re never going to settle, you’re never going to understand why things are the way they are and appreciate the positives.
Scott: Agreed. It’s a journey, and that’s the fun part of it. That’s the Anthony Bourdain thing: going there and enjoying the food, becoming part of it, being curious. That’s the beauty of this whole expat thing — not being comfortable, not expecting it to be like it was when you were at home. That’s the positive, in my opinion.
Carlie: Yeah. When my parents come and visit me next month, I want them to embrace local French food and not just be seeking out all the things they can get in Australia. But we’ll see how that goes.
Scott: Good luck with that.
Carlie: Earlier we spoke about some of the current motivations for what is a bit of a — I wouldn’t say an exodus, but there’s definitely been a spike in Americans looking to move abroad in the last couple of years. And Scott, you frame mobility as a hedge against uncertainty rather than an escape from the USA. So what does “hedge” mean in practical terms for someone’s finances and their future?
Scott: A hedge in the financial world would be diversification: having investments not all in one concentrated position, but in a bunch of different buckets. I think you can look at expatriation that way, or look at geography that way.
I have my Malta presence, so even though I’m not living there full-time — I’m living there less than half time — I know that any minute I want, I can go and be comfortable and live in Malta full-time. So I think people in the United States are looking at that, and I think it’s going to continue.
I think the exodus is going to continue because people are shaken up. No one thought that an administration like this would come to pass. And even though there could be elections that could change things, and we could go back to more of a normal — quote unquote normal — people will be concerned for some time that at any moment another administration could come in and create the upheaval that’s been created recently.
And since there’s been a big exchange in wealth between baby boomers and the next generation, these people have the money now to bail, and to have a part-time or full-time ability to move abroad. I think the baby boomers were reticent to do that — a lot of them did move abroad, but I think their children would be more likely to want to get out of town.
I think the expatriation will continue, and will continue for many years, and I think it will be driven at least partly by the upheaval in the United States and the policies that have been disturbing.
Carlie: I think it takes time to regain people’s trust again, right? Assuming things change in the next couple of years and make people feel comfortable, and like their country is maybe going in the direction they’d like it to go in.
Scott: Right. But regardless of that, I think people will start to get the appetite for moving abroad — particularly, in my experience, where I’ve noticed it’s beautiful over there, it’s less expensive, people are nice. You start to go, “Well, wait a minute. The United States isn’t the only country in the world, and maybe there are better places to go.”
Carlie: That was going to be my next question, Scott: where do you see this trend of American mobility heading in, say, the next five years, the next decade? It’s not necessarily going to stop.
Scott: I think it’s going to accelerate. Not wildly, but I think there’ll be an acceleration and then a continuation. And I think there are more unknowns than knowns. We don’t know what’s going to happen. Maybe there’ll be new laws that might make it more difficult to leave, or tax treatments that will penalise people for leaving.
We don’t know what we don’t know. So it’s upsetting. A lot of my clients who are leaving are planning on coming back eventually if the politics change. But if the politics don’t change, or get worse, they’re planning on not coming back. So there’s a big nexus between the emotional connection to the United States and looking at better opportunities.
But I think, as we just discussed, when people start to realise — when they spend some time abroad, particularly if it’s a place they like — they’re going to think twice about coming back unless they have to.
Carlie: I mean, everyone’s going to come back for ranch.
Scott: Yeah.
Carlie: I’m even obsessed — I’m the type of person who, if I go to the States, comes back with a suitcase of ranch. So, you know, priorities.
Scott: Yeah, and peanut butter.
Carlie: Scott, for listeners who hear all of this and think, “Okay, I actually need to get my financial house in order before I even think about moving to that 20-square-metre apartment in Paris,” or whatever they have their sights set on — that chateau in France — what does the first conversation with a firm like International Asset Management typically look like?
Scott: It’s a soft conversation. We want to get to know our client. We want to find out what their real goals are — not “going to France,” but what are they trying to accomplish? Do they have children they want to take with them?
Carlie: So you don’t care about their renovation plans?
Scott: Right, right. Are they retired? What kind of assets do they have? Are they going to run out of money? We want to get to know them. My view is I want to spend the first part of the interview really finding out their motivation, and whether it makes sense, and what their timing is. So it’s a soft conversation.
Then, as we start to realise what their goals really are, we attach their assets to those goals. How can we make this work? Do they have enough assets, enough income, enough Social Security to actually make it work? Then we create a financial plan to see if it works. We do modelling to see how long it will work, what’s the likelihood of success, and then we present that later.
But the first part really is getting to know our client, finding out what they really want and need, and leaving the fantasy world and getting into the real world with them. It’s a multi-meeting process — it’s not going to happen in one meeting. But it’s an eye-opener for people.
When they call us, they’re serious, number one. And number two, their eyes get big when we start talking, because they realise this is serious stuff. There’s always more to consider.
Carlie: Than you’ve thought about, right?
Scott: Right. They thought they’d looked at a couple of YouTube channels, they’d read some Facebook pages — but they didn’t really realise what they’re up against.
Most people move forward. Not all, but most people want to move forward and explore, and that’s where I go, starting with the Schengen shuffle. I think it’s a nice way to get people started without taking too much risk.
Carlie: Someone needs to make that a song, really.
Scott: Yeah. The worst thing is to go somewhere and buy a house immediately. That would be crazy — without even knowing if they like the place, and knowing the risks of maybe not being able to sell it.
One of the other kind of funny, bad stories that I think is relevant here: there was a couple who moved to France, I believe, with their high school son. They were there for about a year, and the son decided he wanted to go to college back in the United States.
Carlie: Oh.
Scott: They’d sold their house. They didn’t live in California anymore, so they went from $30,000 a year in tuition to $100,000 a year in out-of-state tuition. It cost them several hundred thousand dollars — had they waited a year before they sold their property in the United States. So there are mistakes that can be made that way.
Carlie: There’s a lot about timing that you need to consider too.
Scott: Yeah, there are a lot of moving parts, and that’s why this process takes some time, and some soul-searching, and looking at all the ancillary issues — not just the person or the couple, but their parents, their children, and so on.
Carlie: Scott, if someone wants to kick off that process with a first consultation, how can they get in touch?
Scott: They can go on our website, iamadvisors.com, and set up a call with me. I generally deal with most of the new prospects, so if somebody wants to talk, we can freely answer any questions they might have on that call.
We make it efficient, so we try to get the big questions answered pretty quickly. I love talking to people. There’s not one person who’s called me that I haven’t liked. We think the same way — we’re looking for adventure, we’re looking at moving abroad. So I welcome people calling. I look forward to it, and I enjoy the conversations.
Carlie: And just finally, what can you tell me about the next book you have on the burner?
Scott: The next book is called The Knights in a Dry Rock, and it’s about Malta, the 16th-century Knights of St John, and how they brought water to the island — how the water insecurity of Malta is a proxy for water insecurity globally today.
Carlie: That’s kind of interesting. I love it. I’ll definitely be reading that one.
Scott: Thank you.
Carlie: Scott, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been a pleasure to have you.
Scott: Thank you, Carlie.
Carlie: That’s it for today. What financial groundwork are you doing before moving countries? Let us know in the comments on YouTube — just search for Expat Focus and hit subscribe while you’re there.
Don’t forget to check out our website, expatfocus.com, for detailed country guides, first-hand experiences, and contacts for the trusted advisors that you need to make your move easier. I’ll catch you in the next one.