The following transcript was generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Carlie: Hey there, it’s Carlie with the Expat Focus Podcast. What if you had the opportunity to significantly lower your living costs in retirement by moving abroad? Would you do it? Five years ago, American Lisa Denmark closed out her career as a military nurse based in Germany, and instead of settling back in the USA, she moved to Thailand.
I hope you enjoy my very fun conversation with Lisa. We cover everything from her cost of living in Chiang Mai to visas and healthcare, her motorcycle misadventures, and where she finds community.
Lisa, I’d love to know where you are originally from and how you decided to move to Thailand.
Lisa: I am originally from the United States, which I always then have to immediately apologize for at this point in time.
Carlie: I won’t hold it against you.
Lisa: Thank you. So I was actually living in Germany, working in Germany. A long time ago I was an Army nurse for the military, and then after I got out of the army, 20 years later, I decided to go back to Germany working for the military again as a nurse. I spent eight years there, and this was right after COVID. My visa — my SOFA status was running out in Germany. I’d been there the maximum number of years, and they told me I needed to go back to the States and work for two years and then I could come back, and I immediately thought: no, I don’t want to go spend two years in the States again. I was so tired from COVID, so I was just like, I’m done. I’m walking away.
Then I obviously had to find a place I could afford to move to. When I retired, I basically self-retired — I was just like, this is enough. As a nurse, especially starting out in the nineties, we didn’t really have retirements, so I just wasn’t going to have a paycheck anymore. I did have, because of my military service, a disability rating from that. So I started researching countries in the world that I could afford to live on my income, and made a list, and Thailand was toward the top.
It’s like connections from your life come into play as well. Because when I lived in Germany, I traveled — anytime I had a four-day weekend, I would travel around the world. I had pets, so I would use TrustedHousesitters or someone to come and pet-sit while I was gone. One of the women who came and became a good friend of mine — she came to my house several times — she was from America and was living in Chiang Mai, Thailand. She spoke so highly of it. I had never been to Thailand, but I remembered that. When Thailand came to the top of the list, I thought: I know someone who has lived in Chiang Mai, so let’s try there. And I just moved — sight unseen. I had never been to Thailand.
Carlie: Wow, that’s amazing. But you’ve been military and you’ve lived so many places — you’re well-traveled.
Lisa: I knew I could be happy. It’s been fantastic.
Carlie: We spoke to a travel nurse on the show actually last year, and I never thought about the fact that when you are working very long shifts as a nurse, you also get long stretches off — and it’s perfect if you have the energy to make the most of that travel.
Lisa: Yes. I traveled so much from Germany when Germany was my base, because especially pre-COVID it was so cheap — 15-euro tickets on Ryanair. I was just all over the place. I got a lot of traveling done, all over Europe and Africa, while I was based in Europe.
Carlie: So for some people, moving to Thailand to retire sight unseen might feel like a giant risk. But in the context of the way you’ve lived your life and how well-traveled you are, it actually wasn’t such a scary thing to do, perhaps?
Lisa: No, it really wasn’t. I’m so used to moving every few years, whether with the military or just the way my life would go in three-year cycles sometimes. My biggest thing was I didn’t want to go back to the United States — it was such a struggle financially to make it there. The thought of going to a new place was a much smaller threat.
Carlie: And what were your first impressions of Chiang Mai when you got there?
Lisa: Well, my first impressions of Thailand — we were still in COVID lockdown. You know, the TV, and the Thai voices on TV, which is not the way that most Thais speak. I thought I may have made a mistake, because when you were in COVID lockdown, you didn’t even see anybody. They would come and serve you your food, knock on the door, and then run — they were covered. I was like, I’m not sure about this. But it’s funny, because I was filling up passports — having to replace my passports — and I’ve been in Chiang Mai now for five years. When I got here it was just like: you could finally relax. It’s so calm, it’s so peaceful, and I absolutely love it.
Carlie: So you actually decided to move during COVID. How much more difficult was it to get yourself from Germany to Thailand? I assume you had some quarantine period when you got there.
Lisa: When we came to Thailand, we had a quarantine. And logistically, the American military would not move my things or move me and my family to Thailand, but they would move us back to the United States — even though we were so much closer in Germany, like we could almost get on a train. So we had to go back to the States for a few weeks, and that worried me because Americans don’t always follow the rules when it came to COVID. I was like, please don’t lock me down here. I was so glad to get back on the plane. The fact is I had to move anyway — whether it was COVID or not, I had to leave Germany. So it wasn’t any harder.
Carlie: Lisa, you mentioned that a major part of your decision to move to Thailand was cost of living, and how the US was so much more expensive. Can you give me a bit of a comparison to your living costs in Chiang Mai compared to if you were back in the States?
Lisa: Absolutely. I have six daughters that still live in the States, so I’m up to date on current prices there, especially rental apartments. I have daughters that live in Mississippi, which is a low cost of living state. One of them is in a one-bedroom apartment and she pays about 1,500 US dollars — or about 1,300 euros — a month. Here in Thailand, I have a wonderful house: three bedrooms, two baths, two-story, in a gated community with a yard, and I pay 310 euros a month.
Carlie: 310 euros? Compared to 1,300 euros?
Lisa: Yes, absolutely. And not just a fraction of the space. My utility bills — my water bill — I pay two euros a month for water. My electric charge — I have three air conditioners throughout the house — and I pay about 60 euros a month in electricity.
As for groceries, they are so much less expensive here as long as you buy local. If you go to your markets and get fresh fruits and fresh vegetables, you can get them for nothing. I can bring home a large grocery bag full of fresh fruits and vegetables and it might be 10 euros. It’s incredibly easy to eat healthy with fruits and vegetables here. Meat is a little more expensive — still not as expensive as in the US. Chicken is very popular here and pork. There’s not a lot of beef production — it’s more like water buffalo versus what we would consider beef for eating. I’ve just gotten used to not eating beef. I eat what’s available.
And many locals here, because it is so hot, don’t have air conditioning in their houses, so they don’t cook much inside. They’ll cook outside, they have outdoor kitchens, or they just do Grab delivery. I can order a local Thai meal for less than a euro, and that’s with delivery. If you want Western food, you pay much closer to Western prices. But everything is affordable. Healthcare is incredibly affordable here.
Carlie: Oh, so many questions. I understand now why somewhere like Thailand is so attractive for people retiring — it makes your pension go so much further. And before we get into healthcare, what sort of visa did you have to get to be able to move to Thailand, and was that difficult?
Lisa: I didn’t necessarily follow all of the rules and guidelines. I was just like, I’ve got to have somewhere to go, I’m going to Thailand and I’ll figure it out. So I came here visa-exempt and thought I’ll just get my feet on the ground and figure it out.
One thing I can say about retiring in Thailand — it’s probably the most difficult place if you require having everything spelled out. If you want to follow a checklist and have everything planned out, it’s very difficult to do that here. You can plan your visa and do all this before you come, but you’re going to learn so much by experiencing being here. So many things are word of mouth, or you get to know a local-type person and they show you the ropes. When I used to travel, I could plan everything out — I knew exactly when I was going to land, where I was going, how I was going to get there. It’s a little more difficult to do that in Thailand. You just have to trust it’s going to work out.
Carlie: Thailand is possibly not for someone who needs to know exactly what they’re doing and have everything scoped out?
Lisa: Yes, absolutely.
Carlie: But if you’re a little more easygoing in how you travel and manage your life, then Thailand could be a good fit.
Lisa: Yes. It’s such a sabai sabi vibe — everything is just relaxed, and that’s how they deal with things here.
Carlie: Do you have your paperwork in order now, Lisa? This is the question.
Lisa: I absolutely do. My journey was: I came in visa-exempt, and then I got an education visa — like a self-defense, hand-to-hand combat course. It was during COVID so it was all Zoom. I mean, I didn’t learn anything, but it got me a one-year visa. During that one year, it gave me time to figure out the process of getting a retirement visa. My next visa was a retirement visa, which I’ve been on ever since.
Carlie: And did you have to do a visa run to a border to change, or could you do that in-country?
Lisa: I didn’t have to because we were still in lockdown during COVID. Different circumstances. I’ve never had to do a border run. Most people here do, and it seems like sometimes it’s a nightmare and sometimes it goes very smoothly. I’ve been very lucky. And once you’re on a retirement visa, you don’t have to do that anymore.
Carlie: But if, for example, you did need a new revenue stream, could you work in Thailand on the visa you’re currently on?
Lisa: On the retirement visa, no. You are not allowed to work, not allowed to bring in any income. In Thailand there are work visas you could get, but on a retirement visa — or even on most long-term visas that aren’t specifically work visas — you are not allowed to make income. Thailand has a very strict policy: there are certain jobs that are for Thais only. They keep a strong hand on that so that Thais get the first opportunity to work. Even musicians who come — backpackers and musicians doing gigs or open mics — even that is technically illegal. You could be deported for it. But no, I cannot work.
Luckily I’m privileged enough to have that disability income for life. But as a retirement visa holder, you are strictly in retirement and enjoyment mode. You’re not even allowed to volunteer for free.
Carlie: As a foreigner, how did you come to find a place to rent? Are locals happy to rent to foreigners? Is there a lot of paperwork involved? Do you need a guarantor?
Lisa: Everything here is really laid-back — it’s back to that mentality. You can’t even reliably find a room online. You can, but it’s very risky to look at Airbnb or find rental properties online because the listings may be 10 years old. You never want to sign anything in Thailand until you actually lay eyes on it. A lot of people use agents, rental agencies, or leasing agencies. I never have — mine have always been word of mouth.
My first house — this might get us kicked off completely — when I first came, I have PTSD and I smoke cannabis as part of my treatment. When I got here, I had the name of a local person I could go to. This was prior to it being legal.
Carlie: But it’s legal now.
Lisa: So what you’re saying is, it’s legal now — we’re good. At that point he spoke a little English. I told him we were looking for a house and were going to look at a couple, and he said, if they don’t work out, come back to me — I have one. The others didn’t work out, so yeah.
Carlie: You found your first rental through your dealer. I love it.
Lisa: Through my dealer. Only in Thailand. And the next houses have all been word of mouth. Sometimes there’s just like an energy exchange — you meet people. One came from a friend who I had helped out, and when he found out I was house-hunting and needed to move quickly, he said, I know of a house. And the one I’m in now — I met the owner as I was walking my dog, and a year later someone said, I know someone who’s renting, and it was the same person I’d met walking my dog. He said, you’ve got to move into my house.
Carlie: Pets are so good for making social connections, right?
Lisa: Yes, absolutely.
Carlie: You also brought your pets over to Thailand, which I feel like could be an episode in itself.
Lisa: Well, Pepe — I had a Spanish galgo that I got when I was in Germany. He was from Spain, and he was my service dog as well. He was 40 kilograms — a galgo, which is like a greyhound, a large greyhound.
Carlie: I don’t know what a galgo is, but that sounds impressive.
Lisa: He just laid at my feet on the plane. He actually had the hardest time adjusting to Thailand because Thailand doesn’t recognize service dogs. He went from being a service dog who traveled with me everywhere to just becoming a house dog. It took him a little while to adjust — he got depressed for a while, so I really had to think of ways to get him out and keep him socialized.
Carlie: It would be quite a change in his responsibilities and the way he’s treated.
Lisa: Yes. We came here so that we could see new places, and he was like, I don’t get to see anything now. But we found places, and he ended up loving it — especially once I found a house in a gated community, so there weren’t as many soi dogs or street dogs. They’re all territorial, of course. He was able to get out and make more friends and walk with me much more. It really was something I should have thought about more — it just didn’t occur to me that service dogs weren’t a thing once you landed in Thailand, and so his role would change.
Carlie: Does that mean you can’t bring him into stores or public transit? Or is it just that dogs are not seen in the same way in Thailand in general?
Lisa: In general, they’re not seen in the same way. You also cannot bring dogs into most restaurants or stores. We have a community that has made a Google Maps of dog-friendly places, so you make it your own individually. But it’s not widely accepted at all.
Carlie: I know — 15, 20 years ago, Chiang Mai was this blogger and expat mecca. Is that still the case today?
Lisa: It is. There’s still a very big expat and backpacker community. There are a few other spots they’ve kind of spread out to, but Chiang Mai — people come here thinking they’re just going to come for a few days or a week, and then they just keep coming back. It’s so different from, say, Bangkok or even the islands, where it’s more of a party scene. There is a party scene and a backpacker scene here, but there’s something for everybody. It’s so calm. It’s the second largest city in Thailand, but it has a small-town feel. You don’t know you’re in a large city until you get above it in an airplane. It just feels like a small village.
Carlie: I had no idea Chiang Mai was that big, actually. You touched on healthcare before, Lisa, and I’d love to dive into that now — especially as you’re looking at it from the perspective of a health professional. What did you need to do to make sure you had adequate healthcare in Thailand? Did you need to take out health insurance before you got there?
Lisa: Yes, you definitely need to have travel insurance coming in, or insurance you carry from your home country. Healthcare here is top quality and it’s very inexpensive. However, it is multiple price tiering — they charge differently for Thais than they do for foreigners. Most things are similar to Europe, where you can go to a pharmacy for a lot of your medications and don’t necessarily have to see a doctor first. That’s even more the case here. The pharmacist works as your primary source, and you can take care of so many things just by going to the pharmacy.
Carlie: So your pharmacist is kind of like your general practitioner?
Lisa: Yes, it’s like a general practitioner. Which is great for me as a nurse because I always know what I need. I can just go in and say, I want this and this. But to see a doctor, the easiest way is just to go to the hospital, which of course in America is unheard of.
Carlie: In Australia too — they kind of discourage you from going to the hospital unless you really need to.
Lisa: But this is where we go for our doctors — they’re all there. We have private hospitals and government hospitals. The quality of care I have found to be top-notch in all of them. The difference is the amenities they offer. A private hospital — you’ll have coffee service, water service, air conditioning everywhere, and they walk you from place to place. You’re treated like a celebrity, medically speaking. A government hospital — they may not all speak English. All the doctors will speak English; that’s one of the requirements. I can go to the hospital and see a doctor and maybe pay five euros, or see a specialist for 10 euros — where in America that would be hundreds of US dollars.
The doctors here also aren’t tied to specific hospitals. When I had surgery at one point, I saw a surgeon there, and then I could just go find his private clinic — they usually open in the evenings and on weekends. You can see them there and not have to pay even the extra few dollars for the hospital fee. It’s so inexpensive.
What you run into is if somebody has an accident — you can self-pay your way through everyday sicknesses and things here, that’s not a problem. You can get a full checkup for less than a hundred euros. But if you have a motorcycle wreck or a scooter wreck, or if people come here and have heart attacks, they run into hundreds of thousands of euros in hospital bills. This is generally for people who are backpacking or traveling and didn’t get travel insurance — just hedging that bet, which is fine most times until it’s not. So there’s a lot of GoFundMe for people in the hospital. It’s very, very important to have that travel insurance, because then it’s fine.
I had travel insurance the first year I was here, and then I found a Thai health policy.
Carlie: So you were able to transition from an international health insurance plan to a Thai health insurance plan for expats and foreigners?
Lisa: Yes. It’s a local policy. I chose it just because I wanted to save money and was on a fixed budget — it only covers me in Thailand, not other Southeast Asian countries. If I travel, I pick up a travel policy. I had to have a colonoscopy, which it covered. Then of course there was a complication — they found a polyp and my colon ruptured because it got a little thin. I was in the hospital for two weeks with major surgery, and I walked away without paying anything. My insurance covered it.
Carlie: And when you did have to have major surgery, were you confident in the medical care you were going to receive in Thailand?
Lisa: I wasn’t sure the first time. The thing that surprised me — and this is a cultural thing — is that in the United States, if you go to the hospital as a nurse, there’s almost a competition. It’s not like you’re automatically respected. It’s more like, you’re not going to tell me what to do. So nurses don’t usually announce it. But here, when I mentioned I was a nurse because I wanted to ask about my medication, they showed me ultimate respect and started asking my opinion.
It totally blew my mind. If I said, can we try this? Or if there was a medication that wasn’t really working and I said, I know this type works for me, can we get that one? — they were fantastic about it. They genuinely gave respect for someone else’s education, which was nice. There are some differences in technique that are more laid-back because here they don’t charge for every single thing the way they do in the States, so they’re not counting everything.
Carlie: I was watching a social media reel where a woman was charged for holding her baby after she gave birth — that was a line item on her bill. I couldn’t believe it.
Lisa: Yes, it’s crazy.
Carlie: Good to know that doesn’t happen in Thailand.
Lisa: Yeah, it doesn’t. I’ve been hospitalized a couple of times here, and hospital-acquired infections — you know, if you have to have a catheter while you’re in the hospital — are very common in general, whether in America or even in the military. I have never had an infection after being hospitalized here, which is a huge thing coming from the medical community. I’ve had nothing but positive experiences when it comes to the medical community. The doctors all speak English. In a private hospital, almost all of the nurses will speak English. In some, maybe only a few nurses speak some English, so you rely more on Google Translate — but their education level and compassionate care is top quality.
Carlie: Do you think the fact that Thailand is a bit of a medical tourism destination contributes to the quality overall?
Lisa: I think so. There are so many countries that are medical tourism destinations outside of the Western world. But they also care for each other so well, and it’s such a friendly culture — that just translates into the medical care. It’s top-notch. Thailand is a huge medical tourism destination, particularly for dental — of course, it’s the Land of Smiles — and for eyes.
Carlie: I only just put that together now.
Lisa: They do such a good job. I have not found anything lacking medically. I’ve had several scooter wrecks — road rash and things like that.
Carlie: Did you say several scooter wrecks, Lisa?
Lisa: Yes, I know. And I rode a motorcycle for a while. I finally saved up and bought a car, and I feel so much safer.
Carlie: It sounds like it. I’m so glad you have health insurance.
Lisa: Right? One time I had a scooter wreck and I broke my collarbone, had a concussion, lost maybe six hours of memory. I was wearing my helmet, but I had to stay overnight in the hospital — lots of abrasions, X-rays, everything — and it cost me less than $30. Like 25 euros for the hospital bill. It’s maybe more basic — plain gauze versus something that doesn’t stick — but it’s fine.
Carlie: I’m really glad you’ve got a car these days.
Lisa: Me too. I loved having the scooter — it is the easiest way to get around Thailand. But I’m getting older, my back is not as good, and I’m also losing some depth perception, and that plays a part.
Carlie: Along with the several crashes.
Lisa: Yes. And they really hurt, my God.
Carlie: I’m so glad we’re speaking today and you are fine. Lisa, you mentioned that in hospital settings it’s very easy to speak to people in English. What about outside of that? How is your Thai, and how much Thai do you need in your everyday life?
Carlie: For anyone listening, Lisa just put her head in her hands.
Lisa: Let me preface it by saying I spent eight years in Germany, and while by the end I could follow a conversation and tell someone exactly what they were talking about, I could not speak it back. I don’t speak Thai — just a few phrases.
Carlie: Like “help me” — the scooter wreck thing sounds like when you might have learned early.
Lisa: The first phrase I learned was “I cannot eat cilantro.” I have the cilantro gene — it tastes like soap to me. In my mind, cilantro was more of a South American spice. I got to Thailand and realized they use it like salt and pepper — it’s in everything. I was having so many problems. So I learned how to say mai mee pak chi, which is “no cilantro” — the important phrases for life.
And you quickly learn to say hello — Sawasdee — and thank you — khop khun kha. The Thai people here are so happy if you try to speak anything. We have Google Translate now, and translation apps. I’ve never not been able to figure it out. And we talk with our hands — no matter what language you speak, you can carry on a conversation through facial expressions and being friendly.
Carlie: Making it into a game of charades.
Lisa: Yes.
Carlie: So what does your everyday life look like in Thailand? You have a dog, so you go for walks. You’re not riding a motorbike anymore. But what else are you doing day to day to enjoy your retirement?
Lisa: It depends. I am an introvert — I like to be alone, and also with the PTSD, I am perfectly happy in my house. I love my home. I love my neighborhood. I live next to a park on a waterway, so I can walk there and spend an hour just walking up and down the river. We have so much to do in the city — I just choose to not be around so many people most of the time.
I do a lot of painting now — that quiets my mind from everything going on in the world. I do a lot of activism: for Myanmar and the genocide there, and the ongoing war; for Palestine; and now following what the United States is doing to the rest of the world. But mostly lots of art.
Carlie: Lots of art therapy. And do your daughters manage to come visit?
Lisa: I haven’t gone back to the States in a little over three and a half years. I won’t go back right now. It’s not easy for my daughters to come because it’s so hard to make ends meet in the American economy right now. But they came to Germany — many of them came to Germany. I have one right now who’s making plans — she’s currently working in Hawaii at summer camps and is planning on coming to spend a year with me, and I’m like, yes! I can show her around.
Americans, the majority, don’t tend to travel outside of the United States. They feel like it’s a really big thing, whereas in most of the world, traveling to other countries is just expected — it’s how you learn about the rest of the world.
Carlie: I did hear someone say that the USA is such a vast country itself that even between states there can be such cultural difference — it could be like traveling between European countries.
Lisa: Yes, that’s very true. I’ve really stressed to my girls to make sure they get their passports, because a lot of Americans don’t have passports. Having that passport — that ability to make choices — is such an important thing to me.
Carlie: It’s a joy of travel and a curiosity about the world that you can share with your children too, which is beautiful.
Lisa: Absolutely. I have never once, no matter how tight my finances were, felt guilty about traveling and experiencing other cultures. To me, that’s one of the most important things in life — to learn about everyone in other places.
Carlie: I think it’s a strong Australian mentality too — to go out and see the world.
Lisa: Yes, definitely.
Carlie: So, Lisa, where have you found your community in Thailand? Is it a lot of fellow expats and foreigners, or are you also in local groups?
Lisa: I’ve found community in lots of different places. It took time — the first year living in Thailand I really feel was decompression and learning to relax, to quiet your mind. My community came through theater groups — we do local English-speaking theater here. There are all sorts of groups, usually on Facebook. We still use Facebook a lot here to communicate with each other. There’s live music every night of the week in all the clubs, which is free. I do a lot of that, more so in the off-season, because in high season there are a lot of people, so I wait until off-season to go to all the jazz clubs.
We have an amazing jazz community here of Thais and foreigners. Thais are a tonal language people, so musically — their instrumentation and singing are amazing. You can go anywhere for that. There are all sorts of expat groups, there’s always the older white expat man group you find everywhere, the backpacker groups, all sorts of festivals all the time. Thais love to party — music, community, food. There’s always something going on — sports events you can join as expat or local or mixed groups.
If someone were here as an expat and only wanted to hang around other expats in Chiang Mai, you can do that — I don’t understand it, but you can. I have a community in my local neighborhood, which is mostly Thais or foreigners. Some of them don’t speak any English, but we have entire relationships going on. I live right next door to my landlords and they consider me family.
My circles are smaller than before I moved to Thailand — smaller than my military or medical community circles — but there are more of them, and they blend together like a Venn diagram. There’s so much to do. There are gyms everywhere. And especially in retirement, it’s a full-time job to keep your health up as you age, especially as a female. What I love about Thailand the most is that you have the peace and the affordability to focus on yourself, your health, your wellness, and your mind. You can really spoil yourself here.
Carlie: If you had to make your move to Thailand again, is there any part of that process you would do differently?
Lisa: I don’t think so. I just kind of jump in and go anyway — that’s my go-to, and it kind of works. Everything worked out and it’s brought me exactly where I need to be. I could always say I wouldn’t have brought my husband, because that didn’t work out. But even at that point, it was on the path to bring me to where I am now. Whatever I had to do to get here must have been what I needed to do.
Carlie: And just finally, what does the future hold? Do you see yourself still living in Thailand in five years?
Lisa: I think so. This is the longest I’ve lived anywhere in a really long time. My life tended to go in two-to-three-year cycles — a different turn, a different job or location. Here I feel so at peace, and I’m healthier. When I came, of course it was after COVID — I was very sick during COVID — and getting away and finding mental clarity and peace has been the best thing.
One of the things I’ve learned is I don’t tie myself down to anything anymore. I never want to feel like I don’t have options. So even when I buy a nice piece of furniture here — because it’s a very minimalistic society — I make sure whatever I spend on something: is it worth it for me right now? Because when it’s time to go, I’m not going to be hanging onto something material. I’ll pass it on to someone else. I’m not tied to Thailand. If it’s time to go, it’s time to go — there’s a whole world. But I’m quite happy here for now, for as far as I can see.
Carlie: That’s it for today. Let me know who you want to hear from next — maybe it’s someone you already follow, or perhaps there’s a specific country you really want to hear covered on the show. You can leave a comment on our YouTube channel — just search for Expat Focus — or slide into our DMs on social media. Hit up expatfocus.com for detailed country guides, sign up for our monthly newsletter while you’re there, and I will catch you in the next one.