Carlie: Hey there, it’s Carlie with the Expat Focus Podcast.
Finding or creating a sense of community can be a real challenge when you live abroad. Greek American Pare Gerou is building hers from the ground up in the form of a cohousing community in southern Greece. So what is cohousing and just how ‘communal’ is it? What kinds of people would you be living with, and what if you don’t get along? Keep listening to find out in my chat with Pare about the Greek Village Cohousing project.
We also discuss Greece’s golden visa scheme, how much it costs to join a cohousing community, and what happens if one day you decide to leave.Pare, just before we kicked off this podcast, we were talking about Greece versus Portugal and why you think Greece is a bit underrated and Portugal perhaps overrated. So maybe we can start with you telling me about why you were and why you think other people should be more attracted to Greece.
Pare: Well, you know, I hate to pit two beautiful countries against each other. But I think that there are so many reasons to go toward Greece right now. You’ve got the tax incentives, and the tax incentives are really generous for both retirees and remote workers.
You have the lowest golden visa prices in Europe. That has changed in Athens, Thessaloniki and one or two of the islands. But for the rest of Greece, for the majority of Greece, and certainly for our area, the Golden visa price remains at 250,000 euro, which is the best deal you can get. And all of our members are first and foremost attracted to our community. That’s what it’s about. But there are some great advantages to golden visas. One of them is that your children under 21 also get permanent residency and have access to universities and things like that.
So remote workers are flocking to Greece. I think they like the lifestyle there. And they like all the benefits. And so do retirees. And I think beyond the simple financial benefits and cost of living benefits, you’ve got the lifestyle benefits. Greece is a country with blue zones, and where our land is in particular is really one of the best places in the world for healthy eating. You cannot not eat healthily where we live. You are surrounded by the best produce. You are literally surrounded by the best olive oil in the world because they just won an award for it right down the street from us in Sparta.
Carlie: It cannot be disputed.
Pare: Yeah, they’ve won it, it’s on our Facebook page. But the health aspects of where we live are indisputable, and not just in terms of the food. The healthcare in Greece is, I think, underrated. Every country has complaints about their healthcare system, and certainly, Greece is no different, people can complain about the healthcare system in Greece. But medical tourism to Greece is on the rise. And I and most of the expats in Greece will tell you that the healthcare system in Greece is excellent. And I, as an American, much prefer it to the US healthcare system.
So that’s just a few of the many reasons. And it’s just, it’s Greece. Who can complain about the beauty? You’ve got beauty absolutely everywhere. So, yeah.
Carlie: I have to admit, I haven’t been to Greece yet, but clearly I need to see what all the fuss is about.
Pare: Oh, from France you can just take the train. That’s what we love so much about our location in Peloponnesus, you don’t have to fly from an island. You can just get in your car and drive to France, or get in your car and drive to Athens and take the train. It’s so convenient. I love the location of Greece. You can just hop to any place in Europe super easily. You can hop to North Africa, to the Middle East. You can go to Istanbul, even just for the day. So it’s a great place as a hopping-off place for other travel.
Carlie: I want to get into greekvillagecohousing.com. Can you tell me how Greek Village co-housing came about?
Pare: Well, you know, co-housing can be described as a design movement. Other people describe it as a sort of village 2.0. But at its heart, it’s about community. And during the pandemic, I, like many others, kind of looked in the mirror and said, you know, what matters to me most in life? And for me, it was marrying my two loves. I love Greece and I love co-housing. And there is no co-housing in all of Southern Europe, not really, not in the traditional co-housing sense.
So I decided to marry my two loves and that’s how the whole idea began. And it really struck a nerve. There were so many people in the world who felt the same sense of isolation and a drive for living a more meaningful life, living a more sustainable life, living a more resilient life, and co-housing, basically, is the answer to a lot of those questions.
Carlie: And for you, it’s about setting up co-housing in Greece, as opposed to the USA where you’re from.
Pare: Yeah, because I love Greece. It’s the best of both worlds. You know, Greece is a perfect place for co-housing. Greece understands villages better than practically any other country in the world and the villages that we’re surrounded by are so inspirational. We’ve got Mystras, the beautiful Byzantine UNESCO site. Maybe you could call it village, maybe not, but it’s certainly breathtakingly beautiful Byzantine architecture, and I think it could be called a village.
You also have Monemvasia. Oh my gosh, Monemvasia is just to die for, and it’s just an hour away. It’s also a UNESCO site, and it’s a medieval village and just breathtakingly beautiful. And everywhere around us there are just beautiful little villages dotting. So we’ve got the architecture to inspire us, we’ve got the Philoxenia, the hospitality, to inspire us. And it just makes so much sense to have co-housing in Greece.
Carlie: Who is typically attracted to join co-housing?
Pare: Well, it’s interesting because there are people who are initially attracted, and then there are other people who might be trailing spouses or people who are not sure who end up living there and then fall in love. The one thing to know about co-housing is that, whether you thought you were up for it or not, once you move in, you rarely move out. There are wait lists for most co-housing. So it says a lot about the ability of co-housing to meet the needs of people across a broad spectrum. And because co-housing is several decades old, there have been a lot of studies done.
One interesting study is that there are actually more introverts than extroverts who live in co-housing, which you wouldn’t think because it’s all about community. But I am an introvert, and what I like about co-housing is the balance between private and community. You have the community at your front door to cook and eat with, to celebrate events with, to be part of children’s lives, to have the support and the mutual comfort of lots of people who care about you, but you also have your private spaces. And people don’t always think of that when they think of co-housing.
Carlie: I think that’s possibly a common misconception. I know it’s one that I’m guilty of, thinking, oh, man, but what about personal space? Would I even have my own room? What about my own house? What about my own kitchen? You know?
Pare: Yeah. No, I mean, co-housing is not co-living. It’s nothing like a dorm. It is truly a village. But even better, because the design is deliberate in every detail. We come together as an intentional community before the villages built, and we work together to design each part of it so that we have what we need. We have the elements that choreograph connections between us, those elements like our common house where we cook and eat together. But we also have those elements where we can be private in our backyards. It’s not that those places are huge. We’re about small footprints and living sustainably, but it’s about the fact that those places are well-designed. So yeah, I think people miss that about co-housing.
Carlie: So is it going to be like a village of tiny homes or just small footprint, actual houses?
Pare: No, I mean, the houses are going to be nice. I won’t lie.
Carlie: You’re not putting people in shipping containers.
Pare: It’s not remotely like that at all. Our developers build five star hotels.
Carlie: They’re not going to be trailer homes either, yeah.
Pare: Not in the universe. It is going to be spectacularly beautiful, both the buildings and the views and everything. But it is true that we have smaller footprints. I wouldn’t say we’re tiny homes at all though. For instance, our smallest one-bedroom will be 55 square meters, and our largest three-bedroom, I think will be 115 square meters.
Carlie: But, really decent. Like they’re the size of really good-sized apartments, for example.
Pare: Yeah. They’re the size of typical European apartments, maybe just a tiny bit smaller. But that’s because you have a few steps from you your Common House, and the Common House really is an extension of your home. And it’s this generous, big beautiful place where we share things like a library, an art room, a workout room, a maker space, a teen room, and a children’s room. And all of our tools go in there, everything that you don’t use every day. Even guest rooms, people have all these rooms in their house, and they’re just wasting space and resources. And so we put that all in the Common House, and we share those things.
And then we have our own fully appointed homes with our own kitchens and our own bedrooms and bathrooms. And that’s kind of a balance for us between living sustainably and still living a high-quality life.
Carlie: So who do you have on the list for this particular co-housing community? What types of demographics, you know, nationalities, ages? Are they couples? Are they families? Are they single retirees?
Pare: Everything. I think it’s one of the most diverse co-housing communities on Earth, really, because it was a pandemic baby, and it started on Zoom, and we had the whole world to choose from. So we’ve got everything. We’ve got Vilma and Yorgos from Finland. He’s originally from Africa. They have two young children. We’ve got Sophia from Australia. She’s single, she’s got a daughter (inaudible). We’ve got (inaudible) and Friedrich, originally from Germany and living in LA. They’ve got three teens. We’ve got a couple in Massachusetts who are professors. Their children have flown the coop and they’re retired. You know, we’ve just got everything you could possibly imagine. What we care about is being a multi-generational, diverse community. And it’s so much richer that way.
Carlie: So how many people will be in your co-housing community?
Pare: You know, that’s a really interesting question, and I think people don’t think about this very much. What’s wonderful about co-housing is there are deliberate efforts to design the community so that it’s happy, successful, meaningful, you have strong friendships, you have support, you live sustainably. One of the ways we do that is to look at empirical studies. And because co-housing is decades old, there have been lots of empirical studies. And one of them, which is really interesting, is that you don’t want to live in a community of over 50 people, somewhere around 50 people or above, if you want to make decisions together in a way that’s healthy and happy. Because once you get over 50 people, it’s harder to make decisions together. There’s more conflict and people don’t get along. So we are deliberately staying around 50 or under for that reason.
And another interesting study demonstrates that if you live in a community of under 20 people then you are less likely to develop super-deep friendships. In co-housing, everybody has intentionally agreed to care about each other, but you’re not going to like everybody. You’re not going to be deep friends with everybody. So if we create a community over 20 adults and under 50 adults, then we give everybody the best chance to develop meaningful, deeper friendships within the group, and also to make decisions well together.
So that’s a long way of saying we chose 33 units, and that’s because it will get us between those two numbers or just around those two numbers.
Carlie: So it’s certainly not the sort of development where everyone who is interested will be able to buy a place. And it’s not a money-making venture in that sense, where it’s like, how many investors can we get?
Pare: Oh, no. We won’t have any trouble getting members. In fact, we want people who care about community first and foremost and are willing to compromise some of their desires for a certain type of tile or a certain type of wood because they care more about community. So yeah, we won’t have any trouble in that way, and we will fill up long before the community is completely built. We’re picky.
Carlie: I was going to ask if there’s the perfect community mix for co-housing.
Pare: I think co-housing varies considerably. It has a core set of architectural design elements and a core set of social design elements. And by social design, I mean, we’re very deliberate in the way we govern. We use sociocracy and we have a support system to make sure our community is governed in a healthy way and we make decisions in a healthy way.
But outside of that, the group itself determines the vision and values. So you can have one community that wants to be a senior co-housing community, and you can have another community like ours that very much wants to have diversity of ages, including diversity of everything else. You can have one community that’s really about a lavish lifestyle, and you can have a community like ours that is really about living sustainably as much as we can afford, because some of those things are expensive. But we’ll certainly have full solar systems. We hope to have a graywater and blackwater system for water conservation. We’re certainly going to use permaculture, we may use geothermal. So each community is driven by their own collective values and vision.
Carlie: And have you encountered any friction along the way? Like, I’m guessing everyone having input in what these values and visions are for their community, there’s bound to be disagreements, differences of opinion. How do you work through those moments?
Pare: Yeah. Well, you know, people are people, right? And there’s always going to be conflict. But I think one of the biggest misconceptions, or one of the things that people most can’t get their mind around, is how healthy, and kind of meaningful, co-housing is to people. It is natural to envision conflict when you hear about these situations. And certainly there is conflict because we’re human. But co-housing really is a design movement that over decades has built up a support system of how to create a community together and how to live in a community together in a way where all voices are heard, and where conflict is managed as responsibly as possible.
And the end result, the consequences of all of the work over the decades is that, as I mentioned, people don’t move out of co-housing. Yes, there are conflicts, but people are happy there. If you look at the studies, in Denmark and Scandinavia in particular they’ve done a lot of empirical studies, there are actually health benefits to living in co-housing, because we’ve got those conflict resolution support systems in place, and because we have regular training on how to deal with conflict areas before they even occur.
We’ve got professionals who fly in and do workshops or fly in and solve problems. We even have like co-housing doctors, Laird Shaub in the United States is a pseudo-co-housing doctor. If you got a conflict that you can’t resolve, you call it Laird, and he flies in and he helps you with the conflict. So it really is a place where people can feel heard.
Having said that, co-housing communities do, in some sense, choose the people that they want to live with. Not fully, and certainly we care about diversity, but if somebody is not good at collaborating, they tend to be weeded out.
Carlie: It’s a red flag. Yeah.
Pare: They tend to be weeded out. So it tends to attract people who have good emotional intelligence skills.
Carlie: I want to ask about some of the administrative and logistical aspects of joining a co-housing community in Greece. These people are from all over the world, your future community, I’m guessing everyone’s process of moving to Greece is going to be different, isn’t it? And what they need to do to be able to make that move.
Pare: Right. You know, Greece has an enormous amount of opportunity right now for people who are interested in relocating. And I think there’s a drive from people like me in the United States to leave the United States, to be honest. I think people everywhere are no longer feeling like they need to live in one particular spot.
There is a huge influx of remote workers in Greece. People no longer feel they want to raise their kids in the United States or in Australia and some other countries. We’re getting a lot of people like that. Greece is such a safe place to raise kids. It is so much safer than the United States in every possible way. And it’s a place where your money goes further, your food is more healthy, your lifestyle is more relaxed, and the values that I personally care about tend to be first and foremost in the culture. So I do think there are a lot of people coming toward Greece right now, and I do think there are people that are leaving. So there’s a push and a pull.
Carlie: And how easy is it for people that want to come to Greece? I know for me personally, my father being Maltese, that I could get a European passport, meaning when I moved to London and then on to Strasbourg in France, I could just show up. I was very fortunate to have the right passport to be able to live in France. For people that aren’t fortunate enough to have a European passport, do they also need to investigate that element before they commit to something like co-housing?
Pare: They do. I mean, you can’t just show up and expect to live in Europe, even though you’re an American with descendancy or a Philhellene who loves Greece. Everybody loves Greece, but you can’t just show up and retire there or show up and work remotely.
But there are lots of visa options and we have a page on our website to introduce people to some of them. Certainly, the golden visa is the one that people talk about the most, and I think is just tremendously easy in Greece. Greece is not the easiest place when it comes to bureaucracy. Everybody knows that. But the golden visa, in fact, is. It’s easy and it’s fast. You get it between four and six months after applying, no joke. And it’s a pretty easy, smooth process.
You buy a property for, in our area, 250,000 euros or more. In Athens and Thessaloniki, 500,000 euros or more, just like in Portugal, which is mostly 500,000. You buy a property like that or a bunch of properties and you get permanent residency for yourself and your spouse and your children under 21. And in the case of Greece, for your parents too. So if you have an adult child and you buy a house in your adult child’s name, then you can also come to Greece and your adult child and their whole family can come to Greece as permanent residents.
So the golden visa, I think is just by far the best deal, really in all of Europe. But there are also other things. There’s the financially independent visa, and there’s the digital nomad residency program, as well as the short-term digital nomad visa. We would require people to be permanent residents in our community. Our community is not a vacation community. It really is our home, our village.
Carlie: So you can’t invest in a co-housing community and then decide to Airbnb your place for half a year?
Pare: No. We can’t be there for one another if we’re not there for one another. When I lived in Touchstone Cohousing in Ann Arbor, Michigan where I fell in love with co-housing, if I ever had a flat tire, all I had to do is put the text out there and within 15 minutes, somebody was there for me. If I was out of an egg, all I had to do is just open the door and say, Jeff, do you have an egg? Or, Jeff, my windows.
And they’re out there, they’re out there having coffee together. They went out with their coffee, and then someone saw them from the kitchen window and they go out and have coffee. And while they’re having coffee, they say, you know, we’re doing a film festival this month. We’re going to watch all the Godfather films. And they’re having coffee, discussing it, and somebody else walks by and they say, hey, we’re going to watch the Godfather films tonight. And the other person says, okay, and keeps walking. Then they tell somebody else who’s sitting on their porch and that person says, hey, I got that fig spread for you at the store, and by the way, I can babysit your kids tonight so you can go out on a date with your spouse.
That’s the experience of a day in co-housing. You’ve just got people all around you. And it makes a big difference, long term and short term.
Carlie: I know a lot of people of my generation talk on social media a lot about wanting to be the Golden Girl’s house when they get old and that sort of thing, or, you know, there are even stories in Australia of people when they retire buying a house and some land together. And it is becoming more and more popular to really want that for your life, isn’t it?
Pare: Yeah, absolutely. There are so many other inspirations for co-housing. There’s [inaudible]. We don’t share income. We’re not a commune at all. We aren’t co-living, we don’t share homes. We have our own private homes, but there absolutely could be plenty of room for a couple of people to share a home together in co-housing and have co-living within co-housing. And I think people are thinking in those terms now. Certainly millennials, the millennials that are coming forward all have experience living in co-living environments.
Carlie: Yeah, I mean, I was in so many share houses in my twenties.
Pare: It’s common when you’re young, but our particular millennium, millennials right now, they really are into this. And so, especially for the Greek population, we’re really trying to make it possible for young Greek couples to be in our neighbourhood. It’s not easy because the cost of a really nice home is not cheap anywhere and we want to have a nice community. But it matters to us to have those young couples, and we’re completely open to co-living if that works and helps people financially get into a home.
Carlie: So, I do have two questions on that. One is the cost. How much does it cost to buy a place in a co-housing community in Greece?
Pare: Yeah. Well, the cost of co-housing can vary throughout the world tremendously. You’ve got the cost of co-housing in Silicon Valley, which can be a million dollars for a one-bedroom. And then you have a cost, maybe, in a Midwestern small town, which could be very inexpensive.
Ours lies on the fairly inexpensive for Europe range. But we are in a nice community. So for instance, we’re trying to design our two bedrooms so that it hits the golden visa mark of about 250,000 euros. The golden visa amount is 250,000 euros or more and so we want one of our two bedroom units to be about 250,000 euro. But we have a smaller two bedroom. We have a one bedroom, and then a smaller one bedroom as well. So we’ve got many different size units and we hope to have a large enough range that we can capture people of different socioeconomic backgrounds.
But having said that, material prices and gas prices have gone way up in Europe. And, you know, we can only be so creative. So I don’t think that any of our units are going to be less than, let’s say 130, 150 thousand euros.
Carlie: Because these are professional constructions. You’re not getting out there, slinging mud and creating houses yourselves.
Pare: No. We sometimes call ourselves eco-housing, we share so many of the values with Eco Villages, but our homes are going to last for a very long time. And they’re going to be heated, well, they’re going to be air-conditioned, we’re going to orient them so we won’t have to use our air conditioning much at all so that we’ve got the air airflow, we’re going to care about low impact and use of energy. But we’re going to make sure that we’re comfortable in our homes and that does cost something. So, yeah.
Carlie: And you mentioned that you don’t share finances. So if you buy into the community, the property is yours, the title is yours, and if you leave in the future, it’s not a giant drama where you have to negotiate with other members of the community?
Pare: No. I mean, people do not have trouble, in the world around, in selling their co-housing homes. As I mentioned, there are wait lists. And we already have 400 people on our mailing list. We’re not having trouble getting members. And once we’re built, we will definitely not have trouble getting people who want to be on our waitlist. In fact, we may even charge to be on our waitlist, because what we care about is getting the right kind of people.
So what we have is a resale policy. We do our policies together and our resale policy is if you want to sell your home, you first make it available to the community. And oftentimes people will size up or size down.
Pare: We’re trying to create homes that can have changed walls so that you can do that without even having to move, but we’ll see if that succeeds.
So we have to first provide the home to the community. If the community doesn’t want to buy it, then provide it to the waitlist. And that’s pretty much where it stops with most co-housing communities. There’s usually somebody on the waitlist, but if that doesn’t work then you provide it to the market. And the group will work together as a kind of business entity to help market the homes to people who understand that it’s co-housing, that come to a meeting or to a meal and really get a clear vision of what co-housing is before they buy.
So yeah, there are some restrictions but at the same time there’s a waitlist, so it kind of balances out and it makes it a pretty easy process if you want to sell.
Carlie: And probably gives you an assurance that if you do buy and your circumstances change in the future, you’re not buying like a, you know, white elephant or something that you’re going to have any trouble selling.
Pare: It’s the opposite.
Pare: You’ll see a picture of Cherry Hill on the first page of our homepage. I think it’s still there. That’s just one example because it happens to be on our homepage. Cherry Hill is over 20 years old. It’s never once had a single solitary unit go on the market. It has rarely had units become available, but when they do, they’re snapped up by the waitlist and by the community. And they’ve had to develop something that they call an associate membership because there are so many people who want to be part of the community who can’t live in it. So they created this associate membership so that some people can come and have meals with them and do some of their work programs with them all.
Carlie: It’s like fans of Cherry Hill.
Pare: Basically, yeah. So they created this, and they actually pay, those people pay to be associate members. So yeah, we’re not going to have trouble selling our homes. And it does come across as a white elephant to people initially.
Pare: But it soon changes when people see how happy the people are who live there. All you have to do is take a tour and see it.
Carlie: So then my other question, when you mentioned young Greek couples because a lot of people interested in co-housing in Greece are from abroad, is how do you ensure you have some localism in there and that you aren’t, I suppose, a co-housing community of foreigners that perhaps may be a little detached from the local community, the Greek community where you live?
Pare: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think that’s one thing about our particular group. Expats tend to like to live in expat bubbles. And that is not our group at all. So if you are more drawn toward places like Chania in Greece, a beautiful place, but it has a lot of UK, mostly UK, American, and Australian expat bubbles where you could go half the day and not see a Greek, or at least somebody of Greek descent who was born and raised and lives there.
But that’s not true at all in our area. We specifically chose an area of Greece where there are hardly any expats, on purpose. We both want to be within a true Greek community and we also want to have Greeks living in our community so that we have a bridge to Greece, and so that we are with Greek people. It’s a big value.
And the wonderful thing about co-housing is that you bring this brain trust together before it’s built, and you set vision goals and value goals and then you try your hardest to work with those wonderful brains to implement things. Maybe take out loans, to help recouples, we’re brainstorming all sorts of things, including fundraising, because we care about getting local Greeks in our community.
You know, people succeed at different levels. But I created a refugee NGO in Greece, myself, years ago. And people said, you’re an American, there’s no way you’re going to create this Greek refugee NGO. And I just put one foot in front of another until I did it. It was hard. And I plan to do the same thing with this community. So wish us luck, because we really do want to have lots of Greeks living in our community.
Carlie: And what has been the feedback from the local municipality about your plans?
Pare: I think up until now, they really haven’t known a lot about us. We are from all over the world. And every three months we come to Greece and we go to the land, but we haven’t had a press release. We haven’t had to, people are just reaching out to us in droves. So we haven’t had to do much marketing or outreach.
And as a result, the local community in Sparta doesn’t really know a lot about us. The local village in Potamia knows about us well because our developer is from Potamia and he’s the golden child of the village. So we have a lot of support from the very local community. But I think in the year to come we will have some kind of launching experience where we will come in and maybe do some kind of event in Sparta and then everybody will know. (inaudible)
Carlie: Ta-da, we’re here. Yeah.
So just finally, where is the project at the moment? You have the land.
Pare: Yeah, we have land. Picking the developers is also very important. And the land is just ephemeral. We fell in love with it. A lot of people want to be on the sea. When people think about moving to Greece or to Portugal or other places, they all envision their vacation. They envision a vacation forever. But as an expat, you have to really start with what daily life would be like. And that took us about a full year. Our first year we just spent thousands of hours looking at properties and really thinking about what it would be like to live year-round in a country, and year-round in Greece.
And we thought about living sustainably. We thought about resilience and we chose to be farther away from the sea. We chose it because it’s cooler and we think there are certain climate change advantages.
We chose it because we love the mountains. We love being near the beach and we are, but we’re not on the beach. We also chose it because it was less expensive land and it will enable us to have a more diverse and interesting community. And at the end of the day, although we have a spectacular view, it’s about the people. You know, the view you’ll get used to, but the people will always be the core. Your relationships and the people around you are really what makes you thrive. Not just the view.
Carlie: And so when do you start building? When do you break ground?
Pare: We really hope to break ground this year, at least on the utilities. We really care about having super strong internet, for instance, because we’re going to have a lot of remote working professionals. And we have an auxiliary building we’re building of just a WeWork kind of space with some recording studios for Zoom meetings like this so that the kids aren’t running in the background.
Carlie: Sometimes you just need a quiet space. Yeah.
Pare: Yeah. So we hope to break ground and start working on really good quality utilities. We care deeply about the water, we care about water and energy conservation so that will take some time. And we hope by the end of next year to be fully built. But having said that, we all know with new construction that you have to just take that with a grain of salt. We’re working hard and there are a lot of us that want that deadline to happen, but we also have to anticipate that there will be some delays.
Carlie: Well it sounds so exciting, and greekvillagecohousing.com is your website if people want to find out more about the community. But you said you also have frequent zoom catchups with everyone involved.
Pare: Yeah, we have information coffee every Friday. So, people can email us at greekvillagecohousing@ gmail.com. They can go to our website and read all about us. We’ve got all sorts of dropdown pages that tell you about our location and our prices and about our community. You can see the Meet Us page and see who’s in the community right now.
So yeah, you can go on the website, see the link, see the times, and come to one of our Friday coffees and ask us questions, see photos and meet some of us.
Carlie: That’s it for today. If you have an interesting project to share or an expat story to tell, get in touch via our website, expatfocus.com, or simply drop us a message on social media. Be sure to follow and subscribe however you like to listen to the show, and I’ll catch you next time.